CURBING ON THE GRADE VICE GRADING ON THE CURVE
MOVED THIS UP--UPDATED DISCUSSION ADDED
Silly me, I thought the idea was to hire highly trained teachers and allow them to educate and evaluate their students in the manner they feel most appropriate to the student body and the subject matter.
No "subjective" considerations? Wonder if that means no essay questions.
With no points for class participation, the text messaging will be rampant.
I acknowledge the spirited discussion earlier and add more information by comment below. In blue above was my original point--directed to autonomy and academic freedom of teachers in their classrooms. It was never, to me, a matter of do our kids have to work "too hard" or do they have it "too easy." It was a matter of decisional authority.
Today I know a little more about how this rulebook got unleashed. I suspect this is another example of "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Thanks to everyone, even the edgy ones, who have participated in this discussion. Please continue.
posted by UMRBlog @ 00:15
60 comments
60 Comments:
You forgot to mention the “new” homework rule. Teachers are no longer allowed to give zeroes if a student fails to turn in homework, students will receive, instead of zero, a grade of 50% for not turning in homework. Students can retake tests until they pass them. Don’t ya know UMR that it is more important to build the students self esteem than too actually flunk them and hold them back. Thank God I went to school back in the 50’s and 60’s. Back in the day when you didn’t comply with school expectations you met the “Board of Education” and I don’t mean the panel of people.
I thought the exact same thing when I read that story .
QPS is a WTF ?
50% for completely whizzing an assignment? I think I'll ask for an audit of my H.S. Transcript applying that protocol?
TYFCB
UMR
So which school board members do you think might agree with this new "policy", and which ones do you suppose might think this takes the district in the wrong direction?
That kind of mentality defeats the purpose of going to school.
There is a philosophy that every student can learn we just have to give them a chance. I do not disagree with this idea, but what is not taken into consideration is those that lazy. From my experience the failure on tests and on assignments is due to simply not putting out any effort.
1317,
Well, there are a couple of ways to view that question. Anyone who wants to show the Teacher's Union "Who is in Charge" might be initially attracted to it. So, initially, that gets us to Bemis, Bud and the Jeffster. At the end of the day, I suspect Bemis is too smart to see uniformity as an end unto itself. Bud is clearly stupid enough to skip that step and Mays is threshold stupid enough.
Where is Otis when we really need him?
TYFCB
Bemis & Mays have been helping me with my CLUSTER F*** of a Admin .
A. Send letter out first come first serve to request teacher
B. First to sign up for 2nd grade
C. lost mail -- 14th & maine doesn't keep records
D. Do not get the teacher
Then got some swarky bullshit spread the kids with smart genes out I am an ed-u-cutter and your not
a-d= Call Glen !
Lucky I didn't torch that admins car and give a swarky " temper plus gas & your bullshit= you walk reply"
Tookie,
Maybe the teacher looked over the list of potential parent-teacher conferences and got a first choice opt-out.
Exploding vehicles are generally regarded as extending beyond protected speech.
TYFCB
What if the said car was just charred and the tires melted to the pavement ? I would think the Free speech may cover that .
:)
Said teacher had all the gene pool so far .
I swear your head would have done the "exocist" spin around if you heard the bullshit huckster crap said admin was trying to sell .
When chief admin at 14th could not tell us what teacher we got a week late and proceeded to say " I don't have time for this shit"
I did chime in a Took reply of " What are you doing trying to find another loop hole to rob the tax payers ?"
He was real nice the next time we spoke .
Just a bang head on the wall moment .
I would rather take a " sorry I screwed up " than the line of bullshit . I can live with a screw up ! They happen !
Like you say the cover up is what does em in .
"The recommendations do not need School Board approval." Quincy Herald Whig, 8/14/07
UMR 334
You couldn't be more wrong on your analysis of who is supporting the new policy.
Also, Otis, as you know, came in dead last.
Your hate for Mays has clouded your judgment on this one UMRinator. You will no doubt be very sad to learn that you most likely agree with him and Bemis on this worthless policy.
If I were a teacher, I would declare that daily homework would no longer be graded at all. Instead, there will be a test every day in class on the homework assignment.
1927,
I guess my SWAG is worth to the reader about what your implicit claim of inside knowledge while posting as anon.
I have no problem with anon posting but you have to concede we have no way to evaluate your credibility on this topic.
So you're telling me Mays and Bud and standing tall for teacher academic indepence? I have no counterinformation so I'll believe it. I think I'll also believe that Barry Bonds and Floyd Landis performed aided by nothing but raspberry yogurt and flaxseed meal.
TYFCB
1950,
I have no hate for anybody named Mays. You have some twisted version of reality.
You and I could actually have the same information if our educational policymakers would state their positions publicly. What a concept!
TYFCB
Hate may have been a tad strong. At a minimum, you appear to believe Mays to be "threshold stupid enough". Which board members were quoted in the Whig? The answer is none. Most likely because they weren't asked.
If you read the article in the QHW and thought WTF?, did you call your favorite board member to see what his or her position was? Waiting for the local media to get you the information you require from your elected officials is a piss poor way of doing business in this town.
Pick up a phone. What a concept!
Floyd has been done wrong by the French Lab. As have accussation from the French about Lance Armstron. Testerone was found in only one test(maybe) done of Floyd's urine. A one time dose of testerone does nothing for anyone and requires long term use. I doubt Bonds can urinate without getting a cup for testing his urine. Nothing has been found. I not think it fair to criticize these guys without proof.
Boy,
You got some concepts garbled. If I hated everybody I thought was an intellectual nimrod, I'd be fragging folks left and right.
I see my favorite board member once a week and I ask him stuff then. This week, I'll guess I'll start with a little light, airy ice-breaker like" Are you a freaking moron or what?" That's an excellent way to build relationships.
TYFCB
UMR 528
Stay focussed. You don't have to call your favorite board member a freaking moron to find out their position on this policy. Although, after you find a nice way to ask him/her their stance on this issue, you can at least apply the same standard that you have to Mays and Bemis and concede that your favorite board member is "threshold stupid enough" or an "an intellectual nimrod".
It's best not to assume you're the smartest man in every conversation or discussion you have.
Hey, Leahy and Dickerson will be on WTAD this morning, maybe a listen will elighten you. Frag? Really?
Killing people you disagree with?
Where did that come from?
TYFCB
0643,
Do you twist stuff purposely or just read that badly?
It is in this very thread that I referred to Bemis as "too smart".
You have no idea how wrong you are about the second para. I teach trial tactics and every section begins with "Assume the most able, intelligent, creative and energetic opponent possible". This certainly clashes with the desire to paint all democrats as elitists. Labels and pre-existing filters are so limiting.
Frag term was used in response to YOUR term "hate" in a relatively reasonable attempt to get you to see the difference between hate and either low esteem or intellectual disagreement.
Radio's out of the question. I'm in a courthouse for the morning.
I enjoy my talks with Glen . About f*cking time I get a guy who is mad . Jeff spoke to my far far far better half this week and he too was in bang head on the wall mode.
While in the North Burbs I saw a school system . Their budget is far less than ours and they educate far more kids .
QPS needs a makeover . I am so tired of Board members scared to be the "bad guy" , fire an ass load of folks and start new.
All this money and our ACT avg score is not even a 19 ????
A known fact is a monkey got a 14 on just marking circles .
Come on folks
If the Monkey can rebound and sing "Rocky Top", he's in.
TYFCB
Make sure you let us know what your board member tells you.
I hate Rocky Top ! I actually hold a grudge against anyone that sings Rocky Top .
But you must admit this new age approach to making our next generation smarter is failing .
I think we just just say "F*** it " and let them eat glue and sniff markers until they are 18 and give everyone straight A's .
But we will need more tax dollars to do that .
Sad when not a single kid in High School has read " Tom Sawyer, Red Badge of Courage , Where the red fern grows "
Banned books !
Bunch of P****'s ! And we wonder !
Also me being dyslexic as all hell and as you would remember my studder in my youth and troubles with "r's" .........there was no nipple of the district to suckle on .
Root hog or die back then. Can't see shit right ---practice ! Spelling is hard work harder .
This group hug shit is for the birds .
Scores are speaking for themselves !
Senor & I smoked those tests ! I know for a fact we were mad hung over but an 18 was never a factor !
It is in this very thread that I referred to Bemis as "too smart".
Bemis and Mays have voted the same way on every issue. How can one be "too smart" and the other be "an intellectual nimrod"?
What did your board member say?
Damn, you're thick.
I said B. was too smart to fall for this, not discussing anybody's voting record.
Over the weekend for the other part.
I have always believed in public school education. My kids went to McLean HS in Virginia. No amount of money could have bought the education they received. I do not know what is going on in so many of the schools - a lot of it looks to me like lack of motivation of the students. Somehow, we are not conveying the value of education. All of my grandchildren wil be going to Catholic School. I am glad they do not have to face the hazzle of public education.
UMR 547
Last one, I hope. If you learn that Mays has not allowed himself to fall for this either, does that make him "too smart" also...or is he still "an intellectual nimrod"?
UMR I may have to go with anon a bit here , calling Jeff a more or less dumbass when we have elected people who somedays I doubt could write their name with a Crayon .
Hell some of them I think would eat the "pretty candy sticks" aka crayons .........
Exibit A : Monday night meeting
Exibit B : County Board
When labeling people dumbasses lets do some simple tests first .
Can person read a spread sheet ?
Can person use MS Word or even Word perfect ?
I will start the test simple , I won't force anyone into early Western Philosophy or anything .
But I do know Glen & Jeff are far from nimrods ......
*tsk tsk
Took,
Read what I wrote, not what some poopstirrer says I wrote. Never said a disparaging word about Bemis.
That other people are low wattage has nothing to do with my characterization of Jeff.
That was double strawman, once removed and, in your case, I know you're smart enough to know the difference.
umr
You've at least got to admit that oone of the anons has painted you into a corner on this one.
You either have to admit Mays is too smart on this issue or you're both intellectual nimrods.
I reread your post "1317,
Well, there are a couple of ways to view that question. Anyone who wants to show the Teacher's Union "Who is in Charge" might be initially attracted to it. So, initially, that gets us to Bemis, Bud and the Jeffster. At the end of the day, I suspect Bemis is too smart to see uniformity as an end unto itself. Bud is clearly stupid enough to skip that step and Mays is threshold stupid enough.
Where is Otis when we really need him?
TYFCB
3:34 PM, August 15, 2007 "
I now see the meaning . Sorry it does have the initial appearence of a different implied meaning .
My implied "crayon eaters" is just that , knuckle dragging crayon eaters ........
And for any person in positions in any Government not to know how to do basics PISSES me off .
LOL
But I now saw your point .
http://www.ci.quincy.il.us/GarbageRecycling/wastewatchers.pdf
If this is what $5,000 in promotional money bought YOU got to be shitting me .
Hint get a Jr High kid to "pimp his myspace" and tranfer that format to a PDF .
0926,
I would like you to consider these two thoughts carefully:
1. Even a blind hog occasionally finds an acorn;
2. I agree from time to time with people who I do not find intellectually gifted (See, e.g., Shrub and the Surge).
So that fact that a board member takes a position with which I might agree one time doesn't back me into any kind of corner. Surely, even while burdened by the "battle theory" of internet discussion, you can understand that.
TYFCB
Would that Blind Hog be named Houston Nut ?
Because he found Jones and D-Mac !
Also our Irish neighbor was venting about the new graded methods ........He was pissed and dreading if these kids hit JWCC before he retires.
This reminds me to PLUG everyone renting Mike Judges " Idiocracy"
Movie is more or less the dumb keep breeding and in 500 years Avg Americans will be too stupid to do anything.
funny show !
Why don't you give us a few examples of why you feel Mays is a nimrod?
You have so far only agreed with him on one issue and disagreed on one. Let's tilt that UMR scale of judgment .
Right then, no actual examples. It's all just personal.
I am currently heavily occupied and out of town. I will return to this overall topic and Mays specifically when I return and have a minute to breathe.
TY All FCB
Man, you screwed the pooch on this one. What did your board member say?
You breathing yet?
Seriously how can the Admins think this new "grading" method is good . I think the threat of failing was the last stick in a world of carrots .
Why could they not just stop at This is the % that gives you an A, B , C , D or F ? That little bit of extra effort "for the children" is the kicker.
What total crap !!!!!!!
I love having a $60 plus million per year budget to make kids DUMB and lazy .
Oh the pure joy !
It's been five days since I was in here and I apologize for the absence. I put up a little bit on new threads but I have not come back to this because I have been OOT for a family medical situation.
For clarity, I never said Mays was responsible for this abomination. I was asked a question about who I thought would likely support it. I guessed, reasonably enough that Bud and Jeff were the only people who desired enough to limit the power of teachers that they might go for it. The position Jeff is currently taking is not mine but he's damn sure not drinking the Kool Aid and I credit him for that, even if he is behind on style points. Because I've been dependent on the Whig online, I don't know where the other members fall.
I also want to add that I know the administrator who is carrying the mail on this one and think she is a bright, energetic leader and an admirable person. I think she and her committee, however, may have exceeded their portfolio on this assignment.
Having talked to at least three people who were pretty much inside of this exercise, I have a pretty good idea of the disease process for this proposal.
The Board was concerned about the BRACKETING of numerical grades, that is, percentage grades. In some teachers' classes 89 would be a C and in others an A. That was the mischief the Board (Long before Mays and Bemis ever got near it.) sought to avoid. As nearly as I can determine, nobody asked anybody to develop a policy about missed homework or whether class participation could count. It was a straight up "Could we more or less standardize the percentages?" query.
What do you do when your board asks for something to be studied? Of course, you form a committee.
What is a camel? A horse built by a committee.
The committee evidently gave a report awhile back to the board that suggested a more ambitious "standardization" (Evil Homework, all subjectivity is bad). Folks disagree about that meeting but my best guess is the report was "received" and that reception was taken as encouragement to extend the standardization.
Anyway, when the administration came out with reports they expected....Much like Dick Cheney...to have flowers thrown at their feet and to be complimented on a job well done. No board action required. Not so much, as it turns out.
At the end of the day, I think there will be percentage standardization of some sort (Maybe with a little wiggle room for individual teachers). The four board members who were probably ready to just let this flow are likely going to pick at it a little.
Mays is hung up on whether this requires Board action and on the "Too hard"/"Too Easy" dichotomy. The other two anti-tax types will probably follow his lead. That's not really a bad thing because they are, while they do that, really standing up for teacher autonomy.
I'm still stuck on whether either the percentage standardization is a good idea. Maybe we just let teachers define success in their respective classrooms. That's pretty much what bosses do in the RW so perhaps the kiddies should get ready for it. Anyhow, to me the real issue is who's in charge of the classroom and my vote is for the teacher, the one who is trained to deliver classroom services.
I've heard from several pro-standardization types that "the literature" says varying percentages is not a "best practice". First, how on the mark has educational literature been over the years? The abandonment of phonics and the adoption of "new math" come to mind. Second, conceding only for argument that varying percentages is not a "best practice", is "Top Down Management" a "best practice?" The cure here may be worse than the disease. Finally, maybe this is just a training issue. Perhaps there are some teachers out there who don't realize the disparate percentages are really wreaking havoc with sincere, hard working kids who want to meet expectations but find the expectations a moving target.
For whatever it's worth (and that would be "not much")I'm the lone ranger here. Jeff wants to Board to promulgate a policy. The "four" want standardization of grade percentages. Trish wants the administration to promulgate a policy. I think the formation of this committee has scratched off a scab and now it is going to be difficult to stop the bleeding.
Indeed, the road to Hell is often paved with good intentions.
Took,
I'm not even sure I can concede the percentages ought to be standardized. Isn't just a step down the slippery slope of "top down" management in the academic area?
How about we form a committee to study the standardization of deciding when we should appoint a committee?
OTOH, maybe if BC had grade standardization in PE, he could hit the ocean more often that one time outta five. Nah, never mind.
TYFCB
Is this the same administrator, who when her feet were put in the fire resorted to the old trick of using tears? You say that “she and her committee, however, may have exceeded their portfolio on this assignment” It wasn’t she and her committee, it was she and the other admins on the committee that decided to spice things up. The teachers on the committee were not in agreement, with the exception of grade standardization, with the rest of the recommendations.
Is this the same administrator(Assistant Superintendent/Curriculum & Instruction), who is responsible for and continues to condone “The abandonment of phonics and the adoption of "new math"”
Do I favor the Board making curriculum decisions, no. The Board should hold the Admins. accountable for their decisions not make them. I agree with you on the “Top Down Management” never has worked and never will.
Excellent posts, I am glad to see some concerned citizens discussing this serious issue, although I do take issue with the political references make during your post.
The Cheney reference was just for yucks. No deep, political meaning.
Thanks for your comments. You obviously have a perspective and insight on this beyond my own. I've pieced this process together by discussing it with various participants.
TYFCB
This is all a part of the "no child left behind" program. I believe that kids are going to be behind no matter how far you throw them forward.
Brodie haters ! Care for me to bring up Rex ?
Also great talk on a bad policy . I vote a strongly disagree on the policy .
umr 334 341
The grade standardization means little, as a teacher just adjust your course work to make a 90 a 93. it's all fluff. I can write a test that everyone will fail or pass and everything in between regardless of an arbitrary grade scale.
Not allowed to count homework for more than 10%?, give daily quizzes on what the homework assignment covered. I think at issue is the "do-overs", 50% credit for doing nothing, no attendance or participation requirement.
Classifying the administrator as "a bright, energetic leader and an admirable person" is ridiculous. There are many people who are energetic who demonstrate they are not bright by their proposed policies.
It's also very unclear how you are a lone ranger. How is your position different from Mays'?
0703,
I absolutely agree with your first paragraph.
Your second paragraph is the stuff I think was beyond the delegation to the commitee.
Richard Perl is bright and energetic but I don't agree with his worldview. I stand by my comments on the lead administrator of this committee, even if I reject her conclusions.
Fourth para: Mays wants the BOARD to make grading policy (albeit he dislikes this policy proposal like I do.). Different from Mays, I think trained teachers should run their classrooms and issue their grades on whatever standards they think appropriate to the class makeup and the subject matter. I thought I made that pretty clear but I hope this explains it better. JM thinks the current proposal is bad and so do I but his cure is not the one I'd go for.
TYFCB
"Mays wants the BOARD to make grading policy "
I don't think it's a matter that anyone "wants" the BOARD to make grading policy , but who is actually tasked with the responsibility of doing so as laid out in board policy.
Each of these areas, from evaluation to homework, is addressed in board policy written long before Mays and Bemis arrived. Implementing the new policy would require changes to this policy, which would require board approval.
Current Board policy states for example that homework "shall be based on the needs of the individual student as determined by the professional judgment of the teacher". The new policy proposed clearly doesn't jive with this as it allows a committee to determine homework requirements.
0718,
I see your point. The only quibble I have with you there is the existing position of the board is "laissez faire". Even though he's been sucked into it. Mays' position is now for the board to set the parameters for grading and homework.
I absolutely agree that he's there because of what he must consider an ambush and my position is closer to his than that of the four and the respected administrator who is on point here.
Still, a policy of non-interference is much different than a policy with actual parameters, whether or not they would be ones I favor.
I do take your point and I don't mean to be gigging Jeff on this specific difference, just noting it is different from the point I've staked out here.
TYFCB
"Even though he's been sucked into it. Mays' position is now for the board to set the parameters for grading and homework."
Not true. The board has already set the parameters. The new policy deviates from existing policy. Mays is simply saying this committee cannot arbitrarily change policy. It must be approved by the board.
And some people wonder why the taxpayers in this school district are unwilling to support a tax increase. The absolute arrogance of the administrations over the years just continues to grow. I find the inability of the current administration to understand the problems they are creating bordering on total incompetence. When the parents and taxpayers in this district get fed up enough they will take back the schools from the lame brain bureaucrats who run our schools. It is so sad!!
0450,
First, I was attempting to sympathize with how Mays found himself playing the heavy here. There was no need to defend him.
Here was the point: The policy of the Board was to defer to teachers. The ADMINISTRATION would now change that policy, ostensibly without Board action (Worse, claiming they were directed by the Board to do so.).
This forced Mays to say, in effect, the board needs to set more ambitious standards for grading and homework (a departure, whether we like it or not, from existing Board "hands off" policy.)
This portion of my stated position is very sympathetic to Jeff.
TYFCB
0649,
You seem to support teachers and students, but not administrators. Most of our administrators have come up that ranks from being teachers. What happens to good sensible teachers as they move up in the administration? What's the corrupting influence in your opinion. This is a value-free question. I'd really like to have your thoughts.
TYFCB
When I was in high school, and that was 25 years ago, zero meant zero. In mathmatics, that's pretty standardized. In physics, zero is a constant. In other forms of science, it's interpreted. In politics, that's another story.
UMR 0649,
“You seem to support teachers and students, but not administrators. Most of our administrators have come up that ranks from being teachers.”
Could be it’s the Peter Principle of Management at work, that is you elevate a person to the highest level of their incompetence. They may have been great teachers but they are now poor managers.
I believe it's time for the school board to manage until the admins. come out of the clouds.
Pot,
Could be. I don't have a better explanation.
There's mischief in your suggestions, though. Boards make policy and executives execute. In Not-For-Profits, when those roles get garbled, even worse stuff happens.
I think one mitigation could be shorter contracts for the high administrators. It's like the "franchise" tag in the NFL. It concentrates the mind wonderfully.
Thanks for a good comment.
TYFCB
Now that is a great suggestion, shorter contracts for admins. Having a one year contract hanging over your head may change a persons view.
"Those that can teach, teach. Those that cannot, manage!"
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