QUINCY PUBLIC SCHOOLS, THE TORT FUND AND HERE'S WHAT I DON'T GET
I understand the court's ruling. I think I understand why the Board did what it did back in '03.
The opinion isn't difficult to read and understand. I get all that.
Here's what I don't get: Why are so many people so damn happy about it?
The impact is just short of the equivalent of a building burning down per year. I remember when a school building actually did burn down. Everyone was sad. So why now are so many people so giddy?
If these folks think the school board used bad judgment, I get that. But, really, isn't that something we could have fixed at the ballot box? There were plenty of anti-tort fund candidates over the last six or seven years. Some of them didn't know a tort from a blintz but some of them could have served well. For the most part, they didn't get close. If the community is so pleased this Board has been tripped up, why hadn't it run the offending members out of office.
Somebody please tell me why this is a cause for such celebration!
posted by UMRBlog @ 16:08
36 comments
36 Comments:
The majority of the citizens of Quincy have no direct connection with the public schools. In fact, the percentage of those with children or grandchildren in the school system is much lower than you might guess. Many are not interested in supporting something, paying taxes for a service that they do not use. These individuals do not value the indirect benefits, they do not respect the service of public servants - their only concern is their level of taxation. So when you mix a selfish nature with a lack of direct benefits it is not surprising to see some overjoyed by the QPS loss in court. The court has made a ruling – if the school district did not use the funds correctly there will be consequences. The larger issue is that the funding of the public school system places tremendous pressure on local communities. The state government is not courageous enough to make tough decisions. Jeff Mays was in state government for several years. Someone help me here – did he offer anything significant in regards to public school funding reform during his time in Springfield? There are several that complain about the system, but even those who have been in a position to change things have done nothing, except talk. Words are cheaper than textbooks. So, we go on blaming the teachers or the administrators for accepting a wage for their service. You know if the teachers and admin staff would do their job for free we would not have a financial crisis in the schools.
There is factual basis to much of what you say but it still doesn't really explain the unrestrained glee about this. It's like rooting for jock itch or something.
I wonder if the citizens with no chillun in the schools understand the untrained ones are going to be their neighborhood burglars, car thieves and armed robbers, not to mention the one using the ER and not paying for it. I'm not saying that justifies waste or hubris but anyone who lives here and says he's unaffected by the success of the schools, is kidding hisownself.
TYFCB
I think some of us are happy because a taxing body committed a semi fraud and got caught ! What I want to know is WHO ADVISED them to do this .
I think the moral of the story is for once the Schools need to make due with less . They need to buckle down and survive .
If a company had committed fraud vs the tax payers in say Garbage collection ........
The ones who made the decision would be facing JAIL .
We are treating a large "compnay" the schools as something that can't do wrong .
I for one think they did do wrong and someone needs to PAY for it .
So actually I am clapping because a wrong was "righted" in a court of law .
Also Tony ,
Someone made that decision . I think with a Over wrongful tax of upwards to $24 MILLION , we deserve to know who .
If this person still works for QPS , they need to be fired . No pass go and no cush retirement .
John B needs to get his ass off the fence and start the process . Somebody or many somebodys took this IDEA to levy the tort fund higher and to pay employees with it .
This is fraud on a Grand scale and we deserve to know who committed it .
We kicked the King of england out of the USA for far lesser money ! I swear didn't we just shoot fireworks and celebrate ?
I think I understand why the Board did what it did back in '03.
Why do you think they did what they did?
As for as the gloating and whee it cam from, maybe the 1000 + people of signed on to the suit can answer that, I just wonder who they are and why they were that motivated. That may explain some of the giddiness.
Here's another thing I don't get.
If teaching is such an easy / part time job that pays so well, why didn't everyone who is knocking the QPS and the teachers sign up to be one?
NOT A CLUE!!
It’s quite obvious neither of you understand the Quincy taxpayer who feels like he or she is finally getting some justice. You two are part of the problem. You take that enlighten elitist view of us poor dumb stingy taxpayers who just don’t appreciate education. What have either of you two done to make the board better? It’s easy to take the taxpayer to task. You send your kids to QND. UMR says if we don’t fund and fund the schools we will have more burglars. We have more burglars because the legal system is like the public schools, they love to recycle, keeps them busy and they have no balls to take care of the criminals.
How many times over the past thirty years have taxpayer been scolded for their lack of funding of the public schools, been told there will be mass layoffs, no supplies for kids, no music, no art classes and on and on, only to never have it happen. How long must the taxpayers listen to this crap from the Big White House of Wisdom on the Hill? You remember the Big White House of Wisdom on the Hill, the one with the $180,000 porch, the one the sad ass administrators can’t live with out because they just might have to come into contact with the teachers or the students they are charged with supporting.
We have had superintendents leave under questionable circumstances with no explanation to the taxpayer. And still you wonder why some taxpayers might feel like they have received a breathe of fresh air with the tort ruling. I take issue with your term of glee. As someone who has worked or tried to work with the Quincy Public School system for over thirty years and watch slight of hand games, watched the former business manager rig the system for his own benefit, watch him double dip the system while the media sat on their collective asses, I say it’s about damn time the taxpayer wins one.
Did I smile when I heard about the ruling? Not really, more of a smirk knowing it will change noting at the Big White House of Wisdom on the Hill. They will hunker down, devise a new strategy and come forth with an “end of the world need.” The damn porch will be falling off!!!
You boys need to hang around the real people. You know, people who make their money the old fashion way, they invest their savings in their own business, they take risk, hire real people, give back to the community and never take a dollar from the taxpayer. They just get taxed and taxed and taxed for everything politicians and bureaucrats can think of.
It’s not glee UMR. It’s really sad.
We like our elected officials and govt agencies to act lawfully, you'll have to excuse us, we're a little funny that way.
There you are Mellon.
Why don't we pay the good teachers more than we pay the ones that are terrible at their jobs?
To put it in laymans terms; people don't like it when you say one thing and then do another. Don't tell me that youa are taxing me for one thing and then use it for another. This is a kin to the City Council telling the people that there will be a sunset or an end to an additional 1 cent sales tax. But once they have it they just can't let it go. They spend it before they have it. School Board still spending/borrowing away on what amount to beautification projects. Not many people will support a tax increase unless the Board gets their house or checkbook in order. What they ought to do is look inward at themselves instead of looking with their hand out. Come out with a list of issues that need to be addressed and tackle them. When you are paying Kerry Anders $90,000 a year and the average joe is making $45 to $50 Gs it just does not sit well.
What most people will retort is the higher paying jobs don't amount to much of a percentage of the entire budget. But it is that attitude that it is OKAY because it is a small part of the budget, that people don not like. It represents a Laissez-Faire attitude about the entire checkbook.
That is why people will cheer for this, it is kind of a David vs Goliath or the reason some people like the Cubs because they are always the underdog.
Rob
Some believe that continuing to throw money at a broken monopoly that breeds mediocrity is not the answer.
How much more money do you think the teachers need? Seriously, a number.
How much should teachers be paid?
But, really, isn't that something we could have fixed at the ballot box?
That fix appears to be underway. I'd bet you voted status quo.
INTENT !!!!!!!!!!!
Like a Murder One . Intent from 172's view is the whole crux of the matter . The INTENT was to get the funds and spend the funds .
Intent to committ public fraud
0717,
Please call my attention to where I tied burglary to school funding. You are wrong.
I tied untrained students to school funding. If you're gonna rip me, please do so on positions I actually take.
TYFCB
0717,
No, it's just sheer joy and you're showing some of it too. When George Ryan or Otto Kerner went down, there were no big whoops like this. It's more than just some kind of law-breakers being brought to justice. There's much more going on.
I suspect it's in part an anti-degreed person phenomenon. But I know that's not all of it.
TYFCB, even if you don't understand Jack about me.
0819,
See my 1829 comment. If we were so universally cranked about this, we'd have seen it at the ballot box before this. This has some kind of class warfare flavor to it.
TYFCB
Harold 1148,
That's all great but if that outrage was already there, why weren't the barbarians at the gates during the last ten years' or so worth of elections?
All of a sudden everybody wants to pile on these volunteer board members who presumably were relying on professional advice. Conceding, for the purpose of argument, everything you say, it still doesn't explain why this one issue makes folks happier than the USA women's soccer team's win. That's my question, why the big Whoops now?
TYFCB
0717 one more time,
Feel free to take your "elitist" crack and stick it. My father was a prize fighter when the "prizes" (purses) were small and the fighter was lucky to get any of it. I went to college on earned, merit scholarships a brutal job in a coffee roastery (that's where you load and clean the oven from hell, the inside of which feels like Hell.)and officiating sports in my "spare" time.
I enlisted in the military and funded Law School mostly on the GI Bill, helping a furniture mover and whatever officiating gigs studying permitted.
It's just possible I have a pretty good grasp of wage-earners' and taxpayer's attitudes and problems.
What I asked for was an explanation of this "spike it in the end zone" joy. About that, you're right, I have no clue. It looks like a lose-lose to me and nothing to cheer about. I'm not saying it's an incorrect outcome. I just don't get the giggles.
It wasn't an invitation to call me names.
1431,
You have very little idea. A few years ago, I supported a School Board candidate by writing a personal letter to about two hundred friends. Quickly it became obvious to me that this candidate was oblivious to some real problems and, once elected, became so incredibly smart the he/she couldn't possibly learn anything more.
When the next election rolled around, I told four hundred friends this member was not worthy of retention. The member was not retained.
Secret ballot is an interesting method. You would be surprised. Let's leave it at that.
TYFCB
UMR
Your humble pedigree is impressive. It appears though, somewhere in life, you chose another path when you decided to pick the low hanging fruit from the tree of political patronage jobs. Good story though. You also didn't answer the question of why do you think they did what they did?
Please call my attention to where I tied burglary to school funding. You are wrong.
I tied untrained students to school funding. If you're gonna rip me, please do so on positions I actually take.
You wrote
the untrained ones are going to be their neighborhood burglars, car thieves and armed robbers, not to mention the one using the ER and not paying for it.
So low or no school funding results in untrained students, and untrained students results in them becoming burglars and etc, but low or no school funding doesn't result in untrained students becoming burglars? Really? The whole, if A = B, and B = C then A=C somehow doesn't apply in this case? Please do explain what you meant again.
2050,
In Korea they educate primary students beautifully for about $350.00/year.
Either show where I tied funding to crime or pack it in.
UMR
What does the following statement mean then? And why would you wonder just about the citizens with no children?
"I wonder if the citizens with no chillun in the schools understand the untrained ones are going to be their neighborhood burglars, car thieves and armed robbers, not to mention the one using the ER and not paying for it."
How is it not fraud to TAX us using a legal tort levy , but not use the funds per the written law ?
We have as of today NO RISK MANAGEMENT PLAN !
We do not have a dime of that money left ?
Today we have a CASE that clearly falls under the "tort levy" , yet where is that $24 plus million ?
The Intent of those advising the board was and forever will be to committ FRAUD .
I am full of GLEE !
I pray that 1440 gets a house cleaning and the board searches around and finds a PAIR .
How many fraud cases did you prosecute when you were the top law dog ?
How can this be any different ?
We put Jeff and Glen in that last election and I pray they do not back down one bit.
Transparancy and honesty are what we need now . We need open hearings and we need CHANGE.
Step one is Fire them all at 1440 .
$24,000,000 raised YET not a dime exists in that tort levy today .
Lots of people need to pay .
0455,
I did not bring up parents with no children in the schools. I was responding to Mellon. Gosh, put away whatever template you are applying to this stuff and just read.
The point was not money. It was that a rational person would wish his or her school district well because its failures often become criminals.
TYFCB
The only "low....fruit" in this discussion is someone who ignores over three decades of success in private industry, making a payroll and unilaterally decides that any service to a gov't agency is somehow not honorable.
By your measure, Clark Clifford was a mere patronage employee, Elliott Richardson a mere hack.
Whether I have worked for Repubs or Dems I've continued to serve learning disabled children, victims of discrimination, professional licensees and drivers with license problems in a continuous private practice which makes a payroll, just like every other small business in Quincy.
And, BTW, what the hell difference whether I sometimes work for Gov't. in determining whether my view is "elitist"? First I call you on using the term "elitist", so you change the topic to the identity of one of my many clients.
How about you address the original request of the Post?
TYFCB
Umr: We all know the tort fund was used because referendum after referendum has failed. They had to get the money from somewhere. I don't like layoffs, I hate to see anyone lose a job. Qualified teachers would be able to find teaching jobs. But many would be uprooted from their homes in here in Quincy. I hate to see things like this happen to anyone. Support staff would be cut. Janitors. Teachers aids. Anyone else you can think of. These are the ones I would be more so concerned about. So I was not giddy when the Judge ruled the Tort Funding illegal. I was concerned about the people's lives that may be affected by this. Am I worried about the 8 or 10 bucks of my taxes that go into this fund. It does not even enter my mind when I think of the custodianor teachers aid, or teacher getting a letter from the School Board saying your services are no longer required. But your property taxes won't be going down either.
Now O ,
Let me get this right . Your saying your ok with tax fraud if it helps keep employed a teachers aid or a janitor's aid .
Oh lordy O !
Then should I be ok with all fraud ? Hey if a teachers aid bounces checks all over the city , I am fine with it .
Big O the Tort levy was an end game to get the money that we voters said NO to . It is a tax payer vesion of DATE RAPE .
So with this logic , if the girl says NO . Clearly some rough anal sex is ok as long as we think about teachers aids ?
Put down the crack pipe !
Your smarter than that O .
Very good debate, great thread, good points all around! I thought the sphere was dying till this issue came up, great points made! This blog kicks the local media's butt!
0721,
Thank you. I would point out that we often remind our readers that we don't commit any journalism here. We just talk about stuff.
TYFCB
"And, BTW, what the hell difference whether I sometimes work for Gov't. in determining whether my view is "elitist"? First I call you on using the term "elitist", so you change the topic to the identity of one of my many clients."
Different anon. You yourself have said you have a "career" with the city. It's more than just one of your many clients. It is the low hanging fruit doled out to kinfolk and the party faithful. Look around at your colleagues in the legal dept. Does the city provide you health care and other benefits?
It's still just changing the subject. My colleagues and I make a pretty good law firm. If you think public service in not an honorable way to practice law, I'm not inclined to try to change your mind.
We could alway try to get back on the topic of the this thread. That would be useful.
TYFCB
Most people view public service as admirable UMR there is no use wasting your time combating libertarian philosophy that views all service, except for that to yourself, as bad. Most of them have never served the public - and we are all better off for that. Ignore the “elitist” comments, as well. It is a very common tactic for conservatives to vilify a word and then label anyone that disagrees with them with that negative label. The labels mean nothing and the thought process that went behind determining who is deserves which label is worth even less.
As for the debate on the tort fund, the use of the fund has been completely blown out of proportion. Every school district uses the tort fund in a similar fashion - to varying degrees. Every organization has multiple funds in their budget and moves funds around to best meet their needs. There was nothing illegal about it. The court has made a judgment and clarified the appropriate uses of the tort fund. If schools continue to use the fund as they were before the ruling then there would be illegal activity - there is no illegal aspects to the past usage of the fund.
Every now and then I get to read or listen to big-government liberals like Mellon and UMR preach about how noble their jobs as "public servants" are.
That isn't how they phrase it, of course.
You two express great reverence for "public service," as distinguished from narrow private "greed." There is usually not the slightest sign of embarrassment at this self-serving celebration of the kinds of careers they have chosen over and above the careers of others who merely provide us with the food we eat, the homes we live in, the clothes we wear and the medical care that saves our health and our lives.
Those who have helped the poor the most have not been those who have gone around loudly expressing "compassion" for the poor, but those who found ways to make industry more productive and distribution more efficient, so that the poor of today can afford things that the affluent of yesterday could only dream about.
The wonderful places where you are supposed to go to do "public service" are sheltered from the brutal test of reality. In these little cocoons, all that matters is how well you talk the talk. People who go into the marketplace have to walk the walk.
If you really want to be of service to others, then let them decide what is a service by whether they choose to spend their hard-earned money for it.
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